Always on the Right Side of the Issues

November 13, 2008

Prop. 8. From your neighborhood mormon :)

Filed under: Uncategorized — Tags: , — choosetheright @ 3:43 am

Okay so I’ve been brewing this post in my mind for a while now.  And I have so much to say, but it’s all been said.   This blog seems to say it best, and has lots of good facts I don’t feel like quoting right now. http://beetlebabee.wordpress.com/ I am very glad that Prop. 8 passed in California.  I am glad 102 passed here in Arizona.  And I am glad it also passed in Florida.  I am glad these marriage ammendments passed, not because I’m a hate mongering religious zealot.  I am glad it passed so that ours laws will not be made by judges.  I am glad it passed, because to me two women or two men cannot ever have the same type of marriage as my husband and I.  As far as a human issue, I believe humans should be able to will their property to whoever they want (as far as I know that’s already allowed.).  Humans should be able to have whoever they want at their deathbed, in hospitals, whatever.  Humans should be able to put whoever they want on their insurance.  All humans deserve these rights.  This is a human issue, not a gay issue.  I’m glad it passed because I don’t want to raise my daughter in a world where she goes to school and reads books about Tommy and his two dads.  I don’t want her growing up thinking this lifestyle is embraced.  But moreover I don’t want to be criticized for teaching her in our home our values, people saying we are teaching hate, or close-mindedness.

And truthfully I do not understand why the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has been so singled out.  Many churches worked together to pass these ammendments.  And I don’t believe there is hate on both sides.  Today in CT a judge ruled gay marriage was legal.  I didn’t see any protesters there with “GO TO HELL GAYS” signs. 

We didn’t steal anyone’s rights.  We are just trying to protect ours.  Hopefully the hate and violence can subside and love and acceptance can reign on both sides.

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11 Comments »

  1. Hmmm…in trying to protect your rights, you are refusing gays’ their own. You claim that two men or two women could never have the same type of marriage as you and your husband, but isn’t that like saying you’re better than gays? Isn’t that similar to when white masters used to insist that black slaves could never be as intelligent enough to make their own decisions or have freedom? You are a mother and obviously care about your daughter, but what about the thousands of families that are under legal scrutiny for gay marriage; what about the children of gay parents? Don’t they deserve to have parents who can be married and don’t they deserve the comfort of knowing that their parents have the same rights as everyone else?

    Comment by sophie — November 13, 2008 @ 4:18 am

  2. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’m very pleased that wordpress provides us an outlet for such opportunities. What I’m trying to understand, however, is how allowing others to the same rights and privileges enjoyed by many…protects your rights.

    Incidentally, I have, listed in my most recent blog post, just a few of the state level benefits for married couples within the US. http://youheardithear.wordpress.com/

    Same sex couples are not competing for “same type of marriage” you and your husband have. What you have is special and should be treated as such. Likewise, it should be sacred enough not to be compared with any other marriage–straight or gay.

    I am fortunate to live in the state of Massachusetts where my wife of just over one year and I enjoyed the benefit of getting married after being together for almost 10 years. My family flew out from Arizona to support us and we were bathed in the love of our family and friends. I would never compare our experience with anyone else’s. It’s ours alone.

    Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts. And you are correct, “this is a human issue, not a gay issue.”

    Comment by themacdoodle — November 13, 2008 @ 4:39 am

  3. Love and acceptance?! How DARE you say those words when you cannot even accept two people’s right to marriage? How DARE you imply that you are not “close-minded” or that there isn’t “hate on both sides”? How DARE you suggest that two men or two women cannot have the same type of marriage as heterosexuals. This struggle doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with religion or ethics. It’s PURELY based on politics and public policy because EVERYONE should have EQUAL RIGHTS. It doesn’t matter about race, age, gender, or sexual orientation; in America, we believe in tolerance and the pursuit of happiness. You sound like an elitist, similar to those whites who thought they were better than blacks, and you obviously believe that because you’re “normal” the minority doesn’t deserve what you deserve. We pay taxes and follow the same laws as you do and yet we don’t have the same status. Why is that? You know what, I’ll be happy to give back my rights just as soon as I get to stop paying my own money to send your daughter to school, because why should I support and pay a government that deems me unfit for legal marriage? There is fighting against Prop. 8 because it’s something worth fighting about and I salute everyone who is trying to get rid of this bigotry and prejudice.

    Comment by anthonydrew — November 13, 2008 @ 5:21 am

  4. Do you not realize that you can’t always have ANYONE at your deathbed or put ANYONE on your health insurance? You need a legal bond to do these things most of the time and without the marriage license that all people deserve…these are problems. If you also see those as basic needs, then I don’t understand your view on not allowing gays to marry.

    As for “We didn’t steal anyone’s rights. We are just trying to protect ours.” What exactly do you need to protect? No one was or is trying to take away your rights as a heterosexual, so why are you supportive of taking away someone else’s rights? If you wouldn’t want yours gone, why are you okay doing it to someone else?

    And how exactly would Olivia be reading about two dads in school? Why do you need to change the constitution to protect her from that? And besides, guess what? Gays are real and they are present and they aren’t going anywhere so Olivia WILL meet one one day and she will probably wonder. And what will you tell her?

    You know I have several close-minded friends — very stereotypical Republicans from Texas — who are all against gay marriage as well…but they are more open about admitting that they don’t know if they are right or wrong, but that its just not something they believe in. I think it is angering me that you are trying to pretend like you are being good and nice and doing the right thing for the sanctity of marriage and children…it has nothing to do with that, so stop hiding behind it. If you don’t agree with it, just admit it. Its about HUMAN RIGHTS… CIVIL RIGHTS. Would you like “niggers” to start drinking from separate water fountains again? Why not go back to “No ‘Micks’ need apply”? And why not send those “redskins” back down the trail of tears?

    Sorry to be harsh…but come on! Our country has spent years and so much money rectifying the wrongs of the past…how are we doing it all over again? And I am not overly politically correct, I don’t believe in affirmative action, and I don’t think anything will ever be perfect…I don’t live in some hippy, left wing, idealized world…but its so simple and humane to just let people be happy and do good things…like marry. And I apologize for being so agressive, because part of me thinks this about you (I may of course be wrong): I think you just absolutely do not believe in gay marriage for a number of reasons. And because you are a good person, you probably struggle with putting good reason behind this…you want to back up your thought and be sure you are doing what is good and right (something I am sure you do for all things in your life). So you come up with these reasons…but did you ever consider the alternative? That maybe you are wrong? Maybe your thoughts and beliefs toward gay marriage actually stem from bias and close-mindedness and maybe you could just make it all easier by just remembering its as simple as love. “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” It is much easier to love than it is to hate. And wrap it in whatever pretty package you want, but what you are preaching in this post is still hate.

    Comment by Ashlei — November 13, 2008 @ 7:27 am

  5. “I am glad it passed, because to me two women or two men cannot ever have the same type of marriage as my husband and I.”

    How do you know that? What do/don’t they have that makes your marriage any different, besides sex (which does not translate to marriage) and the ability to reproduce (which not all heterosexual couples have…so if that’s your reason, they will never have the same marriage you and your husband do either.) How could you ever possibly know that why they have isn’t the same or equal to what you have?

    I agree alot with Ashlei. Your children will be exposed to gays no matter what the laws say, unless you keep them in a bubble. It’s life. And not all of life is perfect. Not all of life is what you want it to be. But that doesn’t stop it and that certainly doesn’t make it wrong. By not teaching your daughter that the lifestyle is embraced, you are futher perpetuating the idea that HATE is embraced. That DISCRIMINATION is embraced. Hate of any magnitude cannot be tolerated. I don’t want MY children growing up in a world where Tommy CAN’T have his two dads and still feel like normal kid. I WANT my kids to embrace and celebrate differences — not shun them.

    And this is a question I’ve been wanting to bring up to you for awhile: What if one of your children was gay? Would you not love them? Would you not want happiness for them? Would you still be singing the same tune? Would you tell your own child you do not accept them for who they are, if who they are is a gay man or woman? I just want your honest feelings on that…plenty of parents say that very thing to their gay children. Just would like to know where you stand.

    To answer your question of why LDS is being singled out here, from what I can tell it is because the Yes on 8 campaign estimates that up to 40 percent of its donations come from Mormons. Some others estimate that Mormons account for over 70 percent of donations from individuals. So clearly they are the biggest voice against gay marriage. I mean you yourself have written several posts anti-gay marriage, so I really don’t think it should be such a shock that your religion is being targeted here…

    And just because there were no protesters with signs in CT (and I’m not convinced there werent just bc you didnt see any…all the way from AZ) doesnt mean there werent any or arent any ever. 🙂

    Lauren, bottom line is your thoughts are very contradictory. You say in one breath you want them to have equal
    rights, but you are denying what is making it possible for them to have them in the next. A catch 22.

    You say you are against gay marriage to for your childrens’ sake, but then you say you are protecting your own rights (which were never in jeopardy).

    Echoing Ashlei’s comment, I think you need to be honest with God, yourself and maybe even your readers if you so choose to be, about your true feelings on this issue and stop trying to back up your bias opinions with something that will make you sleep easier at night.

    I think you even said yourself in a previous post that maybe a past version of yourself would have disagreed with the ban. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) …So what is so different about present-day Lauren?

    Comment by LG — November 13, 2008 @ 2:15 pm

  6. First I would like to respond to themacdoodle, THANK YOU! I so appriciate you not using fighting words and just coming on here and kindly expressing how you feel. I am glad you and your wife are happy. Truly.

    Now to everyone else, you know me. You know I am not a person filled with hate. I am not a bigot. I am not pretending (as was rudely accused) to try to protect the sanctity of marriage. Thiis is how I really feel. I also do not ever think that this movement should be compared to the Civil Right’s movement that blacks have gone through. But that’s a post in and of itself. I firmly believe marriage is ordained of God. I firmly believe that this great nation of America has been blessed because we have done our best to remember God. I believe as we forget Him, we will no longer have his protection. I believe these things because I believe in a living Prophet. I believe the scriptures. These are my beliefs. I do not wish for a world where all people who do not believe these things to be isolated, killed, silenced. I urge all to stand up for what they believe. In a loving kind way, as themacdoodle did. Signs saying “Go to hell mormons” and the like are hurtful and only fuel this battle further. Trying to attack a church and take away it’s tax exempt status is not only futile, but an actual attempt to take away our rights.

    I do believe in civil unions. I do believe that everyone should have the rights I listed. What I do not believe is that judges should have the right to create laws. That was never the purpose of having judges. They are supposed to uphold the law, not create it. By not having something in our constitution we are allowing judges to create laws.

    Also, Olivia has already met gay people. She is loved dearly by a close gay friend. She will learn that we too love this person, very much but do not embrace their lifestyle. Like the old addage love the sinner, hate the sin. I do not want to raise an ignorant daughter who thinks that the only people in the world are people who think like us. But I want to be able to teach her what I believe is right. I believe it’s a slippery slope, and if gay marriage is widely embraced and accepted that heterosexual marriage will no longer be able to be talked about and embraced (I think of being able to say “Merry Christmas” as an example).

    I know many of you will disagree and that’s okay. That’s your right. If you don’t agree with me you also have the right to not read this blog. I am not here to change anyone’s mind I am just trying to stand up for what I believe.

    And I’m rambling now, and was going to end this like three paragraphs ago. But it just hurts and saddens me that people I consider friends think I’m some hate monger (sorry if I keep spelling that word wrong) or liar, or pretnder.

    I do not think I am going to further comment on this topic because honestly confrontation makes me feel icky inside. Maybe that’s silly, but I want this blog to be able to promote good feelings, not icky ones. I just felt I needed to clarify a few things. I hope it’s clear that I am not being contradictory, or filled with hate, or preaching hate. I do think all humans deserve the same rights. We will argue to the end of time if gay marriage should be a right. But I will absolutely never go to someone’s pro-gay website and start telling them they are full of hate. I won’t start a website with a main objective of trying to bring down their community (referring to mormonsstoleourrights.com or whatever it is). I will not take their symbols and destroy them. I won’t chant hate words at them. All I did was cast my vote for what I believe. And use this little blog as my voice to stand up for what I believe, but hopefully not in a way that offends. That is never my intent.

    Comment by choosetheright — November 13, 2008 @ 4:38 pm

  7. You lost me after “ordained by God.” Marriage by a state, in a federal court, does not, should not and will not involve God. I have yet to see defend why you keep going back to God in matters of the state.

    I hope you don’t think I believe you are a hate monger or a biggot Walby, because I know you aren’t. You are a good person, and I know that. Probably one of the best people I know. (Remember the list of reasons you wrote me of why I’m awesome? Who does that?!? 🙂 ) It’s just a very sensitive topic, and I’m trying to wrap my head around differing beliefs, while not losing my own.

    I will continue to read your blog and agree with or disagree with what you have to say, because I think it’s great and it’s what this country is all about. Your ideas challenge mine, and I like that. This blog, and many others that deal with such controversial topics, will offend people, but it is your right to speak your mind. I certainly do not encourage you to stop blogging because you offend people and hope that you do not. 🙂 Furthermore, I encourage you to comment on my blog and other blogs like mine and disagree with what I say if you do. That’s GREAT! That’s dialogue, that’s freedom.

    You do though, keep backing your religious beliefs (which you are entitled to) with “political” beliefs. Agreed that judges shouldn’t have the right to pass laws and it should be the voice of the people that they are acting on. But the reason so many are enraged with what this Cali judges are passing is because it deals with GAYS. Not because of what the judges did. Please do not be so naive to not acknowledge that. You say you are happy for themacdoodle, but if it were up to you, or if she and her wife lived in your state, or Cali, or FL…they would be unhappy by your doing and the doing of those who voted Yes on Prop 8 and props similar to it. How is that not contradictory?

    This is exactly the same thing that blacks went through. The way we now think that treatment was inhumane and absurd back then is how future generations will feel about what is going on now. Wait and see. Civil rights are civil rights, no matter what race, creed, sex or orientation you are and should be afforded to every man, woman and child.

    Comment by LG — November 13, 2008 @ 5:09 pm

  8. I know you are a good person and that is why I hesitated to leave the comment I did. But I would hope you would understand why I left “hateful” words as you put it…because your entire post was hateful. Just because you said it nicely, doesn’t mean that it is nice. Taking away rights and treating people as lesser than yourself is hateful.

    And it frustrates me because you keep standing behind God and your church…but do you not realize I am in the same boat as you. I am a practicing and active Catholic…my church believes what yours believes…but I don’t have to swallow it. To me, it is more than church. And you say you believe in civil unions…why don’t you fight then to take marriage away from non-religious couples and force them to only be allowed civil unions? Why isn’t the Mormon Church fighting for that? If it has nothing to do with being gay, and only to do with the fact that “marriage” should be reserved for those following what God deems marryable…then why not strip the non-religious heterosexual couples of their “marriage” rights? Do you see by only targeting gays and not non-religious heterosexuals it is putting the gays into a category o lesser beings? And I believe it is because it is about being gay and no one will admit it.

    I feel VERY STRONGLY about this issue, but it does not mean that I love you as a person or friend any less. But I just firmly disagree with this view of yours (just like you said, love the sinner, hate the sin — same way you feel about your gay friends and their views). And so, if our opposing views were merely opposing views, I would never challenge or confront you on what you believe….BUT since you are taking action on your beliefs and contributing to taking away other peoples rights simply because they are not your own…well now, and only now, I am confrontational!

    I don’t want to sound hate filled, it is about LOVE as I have said over and over. I am not trying to hate anyone, that is my entire point. I don’t hate you for anything and so of course, I don’t want to take away any of your rights.

    Comment by Ashlei — November 13, 2008 @ 6:20 pm

  9. You don’t have to thank me. I think it’s easy to get into flame wars because over 97% of the communication (and subtest) is missing when we write as opposed to having a discussion in person.

    You bring up an interesting idea with “civil unions” across the board. On a number of occasions, this very idea has been shared amongst family and friends as we continue our own conversation around the meaning of “marriage equality.” A “marriage license” should have nothing to do with recognizing or denying any marriage.

    However, unfortunately, the lawmakers have not come up with a similar solution as far as a I can see. So, for now, we are forced to work with what we have. As I mentioned in my previous post, there are dozens of rights and privileges that are afforded to married couples on a state level…and over 1,000 benefits that same-sex couples are missing out on. Visit my blog post at

    http://youheardithear.wordpress.com for a more complete list.

    I think that, when most people talk about “special rights” that same-sex people seek, fear that their children will be forced to read books about young children with tow mommies/daddies, or argue that they don’t want their churches forced to performing same-sex weddings, they miss the point.

    Those who support equal marriage–by in large–are not asking for anyone to change their religious views on marriage. Speaking personally,k I’m simply urging each person to consider social equality, versus discrimination.

    I agree: Civil Unions for All. The whole idea of marriage is really a sacrament of the holy church, and should be completely separated from state laws. A church that disapproves may continue to refuse to perform such a marriage.

    However, I still say “no” on prop 8. As the ACLU says, “All couples deserve to say, ‘Yes we can’ to the fundamental right to marry.”

    Comment by themacdoodle — November 15, 2008 @ 2:27 am

  10. I read an article not to long ago that pointed out that there was a large movement heavily supported by all branches of Christianity that opposed cross racial marriage back in the earlier half of the 1900’s.

    We need to focus on progress instead of clinging to past traditions and beliefs. If we always cling on past traditions and beliefs then we would still be the ignorant society that believed the world was flat, the earth was the center of the universe and mentally ill people were possessed by demons.

    Society as a whole has made much progress but proposition 8 is a proposition to regress not progress.

    Let me ask you this; What freedom do you gain by taking another’s freedom away? Your protecting the sanctity of your family? Well legally people can worship Satan and partake in hedonistic rituals and wouldn’t that be seen as greater threat. Why not proposition that? Because it’s not getting media attention? Think about it. The Gay’s want love whats so wrong with that?

    Yes

    Comment by Bill — November 15, 2008 @ 5:26 pm

  11. Not entirely related to gay marriage, but did you know that in 30 states, you can be fired for being gay? This was just mind boggling for me, and I had to share it somewhere, haha.

    Thoughts?

    http://msinformedblog.com/?p=494

    Comment by LG — November 20, 2008 @ 3:42 pm


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